Gorz vs Solemn Judgement, which principle is applied

May I enquire about the interaction between Gorz and Solemn Judgement?
I understand that Solemn Judgement cannot negate the special summoning of a card which will create another chain.
Is that the same principle applied which does not allow Gorz to be negated by Solemn Judgement, or is it some other which disallow the counter trap from negating the special summon of Gorz?

Taken from http://yugioh.wikia.com

Quote :

"Solemn Judgment" can negate the Special Summon of a monster that is Special Summoned through its own inherent Special Summon effect that does not start a Chain, like "Cyber Dragon", "The Fiend Megacyber", "Dark Necrofear", "Dark Armed Dragon", "Judgment Dragon", "Gladiator Beast Gyzarus", "Elemental Hero Storm Neos", etc

The Reason whye gorz cannot be negated by Solemn Judgment is becos,
the phrase
gorz is summoned is in the damage step.
During damage step,Monsters summoned by effect of
Gorz/Tragodia/Giant Rat/etc. cannot be negated.
thefore, gorz cannot be negated by solemn during Damage Step.


If i am wrong, correct me:D

XiaoCola wrote:

The Reason whye gorz cannot be negated by Solemn Judgment is becos,
the phrase
gorz is summoned is in the damage step.
During damage step,Monsters summoned by effect of
Gorz/Tragodia/Giant Rat/etc. cannot be negated.
thefore, gorz cannot be negated by solemn during Damage Step.


If i am wrong, correct me:D

Then what about Divine Wrath?

Opps wrong msg conveyed.......
From fwen.
*effect summoning,
*cnnt solemn
*divine wrath negates eff,
*so can negate eff summoning

Divine Wrath can activate since it will activate against monster's effect.

bishzor101 wrote:

Divine Wrath can activate since it will activate against monster's effect.

but if cant negate the special summon during dmg step (e.g. gorz)
y can negate the effect of gorz during dmg step with divine wrath.

so is it safe to say that solemn judgement cant negate gorz's/ufo turtle's/giant rat's effect because it starts a chain
and
not becos cant do it during dmg step?

I believe that even during damage step, counter trap cards can be activated so long as their activation timing is correct.

source: http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Damage_Step

Quote :

In the Damage Step, only certain cards and effects may be activated. These include:

* Counter Trap Cards ("Solemn Judgment", "Dark Bribe").
* Normal Trap Cards, Continuous Trap Cards, and Quick-Play Spell Cards that alter the ATK and/or DEF of one or more monsters on the field ("Blast with Chain", "Rush Recklessly", "Castle Walls", "Reinforcements").
* Mandatory Trigger Effects ("King Tiger Wanghu").
* Flip Monster Effects (which are mandatory by nature) ("Cyber Jar").
* Some Quick Effect monster effects ("Kuriboh", "Horus the Black Flame Dragon LV8").
* Any card whose text specifically says it may be activated during the Damage Step ("Nutrient Z").
* Monster effects, which negate the activation and effect of other cards ("Horus the Black Flame Dragon LV8"), ("Prime Material Dragon").
* Cards that do not meet the activation criteria, but whom Konami/UDE have stated may be activated in the Damage Step ("Null and Void").

And also, from http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Card_Rulings:Solemn_Judgment

Quote :

You cannot use the effect when a monster is Special Summoned by the resolution of another card.

So that is right if u are saying u are not able to negate the special summon the token that Gorz summons out, but apart from the point of Solemn Judgment being able to negate the special summoning of a card which does not starts a new chain, I don't see why Gorz cannot be negated by Solemn Judgment (think reverse).
Gorz is special summoning himself via the same activated effect afterall.

As for Giant Rat, I believe the principle is because Giant Rat A's effect special summon out Giant Rat B. Hence the Giant Rat B u see is a result of a resolution by another card.

This is crucial since it can spell a difference between whether Tragoedia can be negated by Solemn Judgment.

Solemn can only negate summons which does not involve the chain block.

So Tragoedia can be negated by it.

Dr.Brainy wrote:

So Tragoedia can be negated by it.

Wrong.

Dr.Brainy wrote:

This is crucial since it can spell a difference between whether Tragoedia can be negated by Solemn Judgment.

Solemn Judgment can only negate inherent special summon. Inherent meaning the monster is special summon without a condition; like Dark Armed Dragon, Judgment Dragon and Dark Creator etc. Monsters that are special summoned by other effects due to a resolution of another card/cards effect such as Gladiator Beast Gyzarus, monsters that are revived using Monster Reborn etc cannot be negated by Solemn Judgment. However, Solemn Judgment can negate the spell or trap that allowed the revival of the monster, thereby avoiding the special summon.

However, Tragoedia and Gorz special summoning requires you to take damage. Taking damage is the requisite to special summon them. This is a special scenario because it is not part of the "resolution of card effects". However, this is still considered an "effect damage" and hence, does not qualify to be a condition. It is considered an effect which means the special summoning falls under (resolution of another card effects). Both of them are considered to be special summoned by an effect; not a condition. This also explains why Divine Wrath can be activated to negate their summoning; while not on Dark Armed Dragon.

Royal Oppression can negate all sorts of special summon because it even covers the "effect" which means any effect under the sun that can cause a special summon. Hence, Royal Oppression can negate it.

Ball-Snow wrote:

so is it safe to say that solemn judgement cant negate gorz's/ufo turtle's/giant rat's effect because it starts a chain
and
not becos cant do it during dmg step?

Yes it safe to say that. As mentioned by Dr.Brainy, as long as the card fulfills the condition to be activated, it can still be activated in the damage step. Do note that damage step consist of many "sub-steps", so you have to activate the cards accordingly.

sp1nn3r wrote:

However, Tragoedia and Gorz special summoning requires you to take damage. Taking damage is the requisite to special summon them. This is a special scenario because it is not part of the "resolution of card effects". However, this is still considered an "effect damage" and hence, does not qualify to be a condition. It is considered an effect which means the special summoning falls under (resolution of another card effects). Both of them are considered to be special summoned by an effect; not a condition. This also explains why Divine Wrath can be activated to negate their summoning; while not on Dark Armed Dragon.

i tot divine wrath is used to negate gorz's special summon token's effect. and not his own special summon @@

I think people still don't understand lol.

When you take damage, your gorz don't just drop out from your hand like that. When you take damage, you declare the activation of gorz and reveal it, that is when your opponent decide to use that Divine Wrath and stuff.

Basically..

Solemn - Negate summon that does not use the chain block.
- Cyber Dragon, The Tricky, Chaos Sorceror, Dark Armed, Judgement, special summoning of BF-Gale/Blast, Synchro Summons etc

Divine Wrath - Negate summons that uses effect therefore using the chain block.
- Gorz and Trago is the freaking same, Monsters that are special summoned by Mezuki or Zombie Master or Lightlord Summoner.

I think this is the simplest I can go. So before you wanna do Divine Wrath or Solemn, you think properly.

oh, so it's the same when u are dealing with trigodia?

when they decare the activation of trigodia from hand, u can activate divine wrath on it?

So basically treat the "taking damage" as an imaginary "card" which cause the latter (either Gorz or Tragoedia) to be special summoned out?

Just elaborating on Baha's post (which pretty much covered everything).

Both the effects of Gorz the Emissary of Darkness and Tragoedia are Trigger Effects. When their respective condition has been met, the player only reveals that card from their hand, and then declare that Gorz's/Tragoedia's effect is going on the chain. After the chain has resolve only do Gorz and Tragoedia appear on the field.
(Uses the chain block)

On the other hand, Cyber Dragon, Chaos Sorcerer & Dark Armed Dragon, are Summoning Rule Effect. Technically speaking, they're not really an effect but rather instructions of how to special summon these cards. After satisfying their requirement, the player puts the card into play (just like doing a summon of a normal lvl 4 monster).
(Does not use the chain block).

What Akira said. Except that Gorz's and Tragoedia's effects are Quick Effects. And Gyzarus falls into the Solemn-able category. Also Rai-oh's second effect only works when Solemn does. I wonder how a very simple ruling involved imaginary "cards" lol.

I had consulted 遊戯王カードWiki for both Gorz and Tragoedia to confirm that they are indeed 誘発効果/Trigger Effect and not 誘発即時効果/Quick Effect.

Summarise everything.

The reason why Gorz and Tragoedia cannot be negated by solemn is because he is effect summoning which starts chain block, AND also because he is in damage step.

So, you cannot Oppression him, as he is in Damage Step. Damage step only allows for Counter Traps. And you cannot Solemn him even though Solemn is a counter trap, because it is effect summoning, which uses chain block.

You CAN use Divine Wrath on any monster which uses an effect to summon himself, using a chain block. Such as Gorz AND Tragoedia, who, after you take damage, fufils his Trigger to activate his Trigger effect, which lets you reveal him in your hand, and then special summoning him.

You CAN use Solemn, Oppression and Raiou on cards that have INHERENT special summon effects, who don't go through chain block, such as Dark Armed Dragon, Judgement Dragon, Rainbow Dragon and etc. The text on these cards ARE NOT effects, but instead are SUMMONING REQUIREMENTS.

So yeah, I hope I summarised correctly.

Main point of asking this is to clarify the concept and understand the situation, if trying to bring up an analogy to picture the situation is not accepted then so be it, you don't have to be sarcastic. Not everyone is current in the game like someone does.

Thank you very much for everyone's (less the sarcastic one) kind attention.

I apologise for the remark. I just found it a bit far-fetched, that's all.